Thursday, September 11, 2008
Learning and Rhetoric
Given our recent reading, how is the rhetoric of the Renaissance different from classical rhetoric? How has the end result or purpose of rhetoric changed from ancient times until around 1600? Use specific examples from any and all of the texts you've read so far. Your response should be roughly two paragraphs.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
29 comments:
idk.
There are many differences between Renaissance and classical rhetoric. The differences that stand out the most are the examples and connections made to rhetoric in the two time periods. Francis bacon had 4 key points, invention, judgement, memory and tradition. One of his main beliefs was, people who cant do teach.
Unlike Francis Bacon, Plato believed in simplifing things rather then breaking them down into logical statements. Plato and Aristotel believed otherwise.
Bacon was more of a logical man and went agaisnt Aristotel's statements of learning and rhetoric. Bacon believed that Aristotel contridicted himself while trying to simplify things to much.
In conclusion the views of rhetoric have changed in the renaissance and classical ages.
-Joseph Baranowski
A difference between classical rhetoric and the rhetoric from the renaissance is classical rhetoric was more poetic and used fancier words, while rhetoric from the renaissance got straight to the point. Another difference is that classical rhetoric people such as Aristotle tried to explane rhetoric in both simple and comparitive ways. Bacon, who was against Aristotle, said that Aristotle made things complicated this way. Bacon preferred to stay on one point of view to make things simpler. Classical rhetoric was based on persuasion. By the time the renaissance came, rhetoric had changed to more of a knowledge based perspective.
A difference between classical rhetoric and the rhetoric from the renaissance is classical rhetoric was more poetic and used fancier words, while rhetoric from the renaissance got straight to the point. Another difference is that classical rhetoric people such as Aristotle tried to explane rhetoric in both simple and comparitive ways. Bacon, who was against Aristotle, said that Aristotle made things complicated this way. Bacon preferred to stay on one point of view to make things simpler. Classical rhetoric was based on persuasion. By the time the renaissance came, rhetoric had changed to more of a knowledge based perspective.
----R. WOODS!!!!!!-----
In the 1600s Europe was going through an intellectual enlightenment. Rhetoric switched from the classical goal of political persuasiveness to the more useful goal of informing the masses.
With the abundance of new information and ideas during this time called for the need to express them. John Locke said in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding, that there are two uses of words. The first use is to record our own thoughts, and the second is to communicate those thoughts to others. During the Renaissance there was a surplus of thoughts that rhetoric became the best way to record and shares them. As opposed to classical times where a lack of thoughts and a surplus of points of view cause rhetoric to be focused on persuasion.
Renaissance and classical rhetoric are different in many ways. One of the main difference is that the renaissance rhetoric put situation in front of logic whereas classical focused on logic over situation. This means Francis Bacon believed in reality over logic.
Bacon says that “The invention of speech is not properly an invention, for to invent to to discover that we know not, and not to recover or resummon the which we already know." From this he means that you have to learn from the past, and not the future.
-S. Everhart-
Based on the readings of this week, the rhetoric of the Renaissance is different from the classical rhetoric when it comes to what they used rhetoric for. The classical form of rhetoric was used for persuasion. The Renaissance was used to breakdown how we learn in different ways.
Francis Bacon wrote, "For many forms are equal in signification which are differing in impression..." He means that the significance of both forms of rhetoric are the same, but what they mean or are used for are different. Bacon breaks down the four different uses of rhetoric for learning. He expains how he and Aristotle differ in the beliefs of rhetoric. As we read before, Aristotle uses rhetoric to persuade people in many ways.
Rhetoric changed because by the 1600's philosophers had discussed and taken apart the different views of Aristotle. In the time since Aristotle had written on rhetoric veiws had changed. Now rhetoric was seen as a way of learning, and Bacon broke it down into four forms.These four forms were Art of Invention, Art of Judgement, Art of Memory, and Art of Tradition. By looking at these four different ways to use rhetoric through knowledge,we obtain a better understanding of rhetoric.
A.Burchel!
Rhetoric of the Rennaissance and classical rhetoric differ in many ways. Rhetoric of the Rennaissance is basically reporting the knowledge to the readers. Whereas, the classical rhetoric is a means of persuassion to the readers.
Aristotle states, "Words are the images of cofitations, and letters are the images of words; but yet it is not of necessuty that cogitation be expressed by the medium of words..."
In other words he is saying that the means of the words is to be expressed and shown in persuassion.
Francis Bacon believed that the power of knowledge should be shown in four ways, invention, judgment,memory,and tradition.
These examples show how much the purposes of thetoric changed from ancient times until the 1600's.
--danielle fivecoat! :]
As time progresses Rhetoric changes. The rhetoric of the Renaissance was mainly based on the fact that words were used for recording and communicating thoughts. John Locke said, " For since sounds are voluntary and indifferent signs of any idea, a man may use what words he pleases to signify his own ideas to himself..." In the Renaissance, communication by words was either for civil or philosophical purposes. Any words will serve for recording.As opposed to the Renaissance use of rhetoric, the classic use of rhetoric was mainly for persuasion. Rhetoric dealt with politics and the differences of beliefs.
The end result of rhetoric has changed greatly. During the Locke time rhetoric was used to convey ideas, to do it with quickness, and to convey the knowledge of things. Rhetoric was used for a more personal reason like recording memories or communicating feelings. The purpose of rhetoric then became about presuasion and defending your point. It changed from a personal use or matter to a political more serious sense.
--Sharlese Hall!
I think that the level of immaturity from this class is ridiculous! You guys needs to grow up and not be punks! If you were that bad you would put your name at the bottom..
Sorry about the irrelevance Mr.Clodfelter! But it had to be said.
--SHARLESE!
In our recent readings, I have learned to understand that rhetoric from the Renaissance period is fairly different from classical rhetoric. The Renaissance rhetoric believed in putting situation before logic. On the other hand, classiacl rhetoric put logic over situation. Meaning that Francis Bacon believed in reality rather than logic.
Francis Bacon believed in logic making him go against Aristotle’s statements of learning and rhetoric. Bacon felt that Aristotle contradicted himself beacause he felt that Aristotle tried to simplify rhetoric too much. This is supported by Bacon’s quote, "The invention of speech is not properly an invention, for to invent to to discover that we know not, and not to recover or resummon the which we already know."
-V. Gobble-
Classical rhetoric is said to be a form of persuasion to inform others and persuade people to believe things as you do. Renaissance rhetoric is an improvement of learning, as understood in the title of Francis Bacon’s book “The Advancement of Learning.” In contrast, in Bacon’s book, he talks about the advancement of learning by rhetoric in a less complicated way.
He says, “I do not find wisdom and diligence of Aristotle well pursued, who began to make a collection of the popular signs and colours of good and evil, both simple and comparative, which are as the sophisms of rhetoric, as I touched before. H e also talks about the Art of Inquiry or Invention, Art of Examination or Judgment, Art of Custody or Memory, and the Art of Elocution or Tradition.
-L. Gonzalez
(This doesn't make sense. Sorry.)
Rhetoric of the Renaissence and classical rhetoric have their differences between one another up until around 1600. Aristole and Bacon both had their seperate ideas of the way to use Rhetoric. Francis Bacon, in the era of rhetoric of the Renaissence, saw rhetoric in more of a knowledge standpoint. He believed in using rhetoric to inform people that rhetoric was not an invention ,but rememberence and a suggestion. Aristole used rhetoric in more of a political stand point.
I believe that Aristole used rhetoric in a more complex way. For example, in Aristole's readings he would use rhetoric to achieve what he thought and what he wanted. Unlike Aristole, Francis Bacon used rhetoric in more of a simple way. Francis believed that rhetoric was four of the following: invention, judgement, memory and tradition.
- Terrence Hearst -
In the calssical notation, Rhetoric was a highlight of logical comprehension. They used their common knowledge to discern rhetoric, rather in the renaissance they took a more deeper dive into rhetoric and disected its natural abilities to distinguish its own self.
In order to do so, you need to further research what you know allready. Bacon once stated that we cant keep pushing on to our future speech, we have to dig up the past and learn again our basic knowledge.
How can you push forward if you havn't started?
I agree with Sharlese 100%. Deviance is breaking the norms of society and therefore, guys will do what they can to gain poularity. So, you guys are so immature. Geez.
Given our recent reading,the rhetoric of the Renaissance and the classical rhetoric differences are based soley on the uses of it by the authors. Arostotle, a classic, use rhetoric to persuade others into beleiving what he wanted them to beleive. He beleived that rhetoric was meant to persuade minds with great uses of language. "The modes of persuasion are the only true constituents of the art: everything else is merely accessory." In his eyes rhetoric was a true art form and was intended to be mastered for persuasion.
Locke was apart of the Renaissance period. He beleived words are words and they should not be used to "trick" or outwit the next person. "Since wit and fancy find easier entertaiment in the world than dry thruth and real knowledge, figurative speeches and allusions in language will hardly be admitted as an imperfection or abuse of it." All the fancy wording and extravegant talk was uneccessary to him. He sought the truth and beleived rhetoric was intended to deliver it bluntly. In the end rhetoric became more political than personal. Over time it was used less for persuasion and more for what Plato thought it should be used for,educating.
♪♥S.Thomas♥♪
Classic rhetoric has changed during the Renaissance. An example can be shown by Cicero and Francis Bacon.
In Cicero's "Of Oratory", which represents Classic rhetoric, he spoke about using language with eloquence. Specifically he said, "...I hold that eloquence is dependent upon the trained skill of highly educated men..." Also, when speaking, body language and emotion should be used, "...there should be added a certain humor, flashes of wit...speaker's delivery should be controlled by bodily carraige, gesture, play of features, and changing intonation of voice."
However, Francis Bacon's "The Advancement of Learning", which represents Renaissance rhetoric, would be opposite of that. Bacon thought that eloquence shouldn't be needed and just get to the point. You don't need eloquent language to prove a point. Bacon said, "...this is true, that of the methods of common-places that I have seen, there is none of any sufficient worth; all of them carrying merely the face of a school, not of a world." Instead, the Arts of Intellectual should be based on: Art of Inquiry or Invention, Art of Examination or Judgement, Art of Custody or Memory, and Art of Elocution or Tradition.
--T.Xiong
In the calssical notation, Rhetoric was a highlight of logical comprehension. They used their common knowledge to discern rhetoric, rather in the renaissance they took a more deeper dive into rhetoric and disected its natural abilities to distinguish its own self.
In order to do so, you need to further research what you know allready. Bacon once stated that we cant keep pushing on to our future speech, we have to dig up the past and learn again our basic knowledge.
How can you push forward if you havn't started?
-Erin G.
The rhetoric of Renaissance is different from classical rhetoric in many ways. The classicl form of rhetoric is used mostly to persuade, while the rhetoric of Renaissance is used to breakdown how we learn (knowledge) in different ways.
In Aristotle's General Introduction, its shows the five ways for preparing a presuasive speech. These include Invention, Arrangment, Style, Memory, and Delivery. Classical rhetoric also appeals to reason (logos), to emotion (pathos), and to the speaker's authority (ethos). Aristotole used classical rhetoric to presuade people in public, legal, and political speeches.
Francis Bacon uses the rhetoric of Renaissance to breakdown down how we learn different things. We learn different things by the art of inquiry or invention, examination or judgement, custody or memory, and elocution or tradition.
This is the difference between classical rhetoric and rhetoric of Renaissance.
--Cindy Flores
Rhetoric from the Renaissance is different from classical rhetoric in a couple of ways. One of the main reasons John Locke focused on was that he thinks words are used for recording and communicating our thoughts; however, Plato used words to spread knowledge.
John Locke believes that words should recording our own thoughts will help our own memory. Therefore, if you record your thoughts, you will retain knowledge in things. Also, he thinks it is used for communicating with others in a civil way. This is how rhetoric has changed from the ancient times. Communication is not used to spread knowledge, but in a civil and philosophical way.
Malcom King Ivery
Renaissance and classical rhetoric are different in many ways. They are different because of the way rhetoric is used. Rhetoric of the Renaissance is the knowledge to the readers. Whereas, the classical rhetoric is a means of persuasion to the readers.
In the readings of Francis Bacon believed that the power of knowledge should be shown in four ways, invention, judgment, memory, and tradition. That’s how Bacon breakdowns to the rhetoric of Renaissance. Also Aristotle showed classical rhetoric. He shows the five ways for preparing a persuasive speech. These include Invention, Arrangement, Style, Memory, and Delivery. I think that Aristotle used rhetoric in a more complicated way. Unlike like Francis Bacon he used rhetoric in a simply way.
This examples so how Renaissance and classical rhetoric changed from ancient times until around 1600. Now we get a better understaning of rhetoric.
~*Asia*~
There are many ways, the rhetoric of the Renaissance differs from Classical rhetoric. Classical rhetoric was based on persuasion, as was used in previous readings such as Cicero. Renaissance rhetoric was used based on knowledge. They differ, because persuasion is about getting others to agree with what someone has said, opposed to having knowledge is based on what you already know about a certain matter.
A form of knowledge used in “Renaissance rhetoric” was written by Francis Bacon when he stated: “for man’s labour is to invent that which is sought or propounded; or to judge that which is invented; or to retain that which is judged; or to deliver over that which is retained.” By saying this, he also differs with the Aristotle’s rhetoric as well, because of the persuasion he used against people. The end result of how Rhetoric is used now, is a better understanding to people today. Bacon used his knowledge to show others the art of Invention, Judgment, Memory, and Tradition.
By acknowledging the four ways of rhetoric through knowledge, people today, including us, have a better understanding of what “rhetoric” really means.
ashley lauren bayse! <3
As time progresses, people learn new things and form new ideas about everything in life. Rhetoric is just one of the many examples of this constant change. Over time, rhetoric has changed in the way people perceive it.
Classic rhetoric, which was present during the time of Aristotle, was used to persuade an audience. It was used to convince the audience to agree with the speaker, which was used in politics.
However, rhetoric changed over the years and by the 1600's, it was viewed as a way to inform others. As John Locke stated in his An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, there are two uses of words. "First, one for the recording of our own thoughts. Secondly, the other for the communicating of our thoughts to others." This showed how rhetoric was used to educate others in later years.
e. styers
(Re-do) Sorry!
Renaissance rhetoric takes logic second to reality. Classic found a medium between reality and physical being.
In Francis Bacon's work, he says that "The invention of speech is not properly an invention, for to invent to to discover that we know not, and not to recover or resummon the which we already know." This is what he means. He means that you got to rediscover the past for speech, not invent the new.
Around 1600, this idea came along, which let classic rhetoric in the dirt. There being Renaissance rhetoric which differentiated between physical utterance and meditation, instead of logic first.
-Jacob P. Fleming
While classic rhetoric is used persuasion, renaissance rhetoric went for a more logic perspective.
Francis Bacon said, “the invention of speech or argument is not properly an invention, for to invent is to discover what we know not, and not to recover or resummon that which we already know.” This means that we need to get a better understanding of what we already know, and that arguments are hardly ever new.
╪ s morris ╪
After reading pieces about renaissance and classical rhetoric, the reader can easily distinguish the difference in the author’s purpose.
Classical rhetoric was used for persuasion while renaissance rhetoric was more about informing the uninformed. Classical rhetoric tended to be more complicated because it used fancier words and had a poetic form while renaissance rhetoric was straightforward and got to the point.
In Bacon’s piece, Bacon states “The invention of speech is not properly an invention, for to invent is to discover that we not, and not to recover or resummon that which we already know.” What this means to me is that speech isn’t exactly an invention, throughout time people have always had a way to communicate with each other whether through words, letters, pictures, symbols or whatever the case may be. So as time progressed, we just added to the invention of speech, we already knew what it was, we just improvised our knowledge.
Bacon argued that there were 4 major points to rhetoric: The Art of Judgement, The Art of Memory, The Art of Tradition, The Art of Invention.
-Uroosa Naveen Haider
During the Renaissance, classical rhetoric took on a new identity. Throughout ancient times, rhetoric was used for logic, the spreading of knowledge, and persuasion. The Renaissance brought forth a new era of bluntness, independent expression, and reflection.
Aristotle’s philosophy on rhetoric stated that rhetoric should be used to spread knowledge and teach. For the duration of the Renaissance, people such as Francis Bacon believed that rhetoric should be used to present logical arguments.
Civil rights movements and wars often broaden or change views on rhetoric. Documents and inventions such as the Magna Carta and the Printing Press helped to create equality. The message of equality brought forth a period of growing knowledge for lower class people, the idea of humanism, and the idea of free thinking.
Rhetoric changes as the world and people’s understanding of the world changes.
During the Renaissance, classical rhetoric took on a new identity. Throughout ancient times, rhetoric was used for logic, the spreading of knowledge, and persuasion. The Renaissance brought forth a new era of bluntness, independent expression, and reflection.
Aristotle’s philosophy on rhetoric stated that rhetoric should be used to spread knowledge and teach. For the duration of the Renaissance, people such as Francis Bacon believed that rhetoric should be used to present logical arguments.
Civil rights movements and wars often broaden or change views on rhetoric. Documents and inventions such as the Magna Carta and the Printing Press helped to create equality. The message of equality brought forth a period of growing knowledge for lower class people, the idea of humanism, and the idea of free thinking.
Rhetoric changes as the world and people’s understanding of the world changes.
C. Sutherland
Post a Comment